Chicano666 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Published on Sunday, July 1, 2007 by The Progressive Put Away the FlagsOn this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.Is not nationalism — that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder — one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?These ways of thinking — cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on — have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours — huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction — what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.That self-deception started early.When the first English settlers moved into Indian land in Massachusetts Bay and were resisted, the violence escalated into war with the Pequot Indians. The killing of Indians was seen as approved by God, the taking of land as commanded by the Bible. The Puritans cited one of the Psalms, which says: “Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy possession.”When the English set fire to a Pequot village and massacred men, women and children, the Puritan theologian Cotton Mather said: “It was supposed that no less than 600 Pequot souls were brought down to hell that day.”On the eve of the Mexican War, an American journalist declared it our “Manifest Destiny to overspread the continent allotted by Providence.” After the invasion of Mexico began, The New York Herald announced: “We believe it is a part of our destiny to civilize that beautiful country.”It was always supposedly for benign purposes that our country went towar.We invaded Cuba in 1898 to liberate the Cubans, and went to war in the Philippines shortly after, as President McKinley put it, “to civilize and Christianize” the Filipino people.As our armies were committing massacres in the Philippines (at least 600,000 Filipinos died in a few years of conflict), Elihu Root, our secretary of war, was saying: “The American soldier is different from all other soldiers of all other countries since the war began. He is the advance guard of liberty and justice, of law and order, and of peace and happiness.”We see in Iraq that our soldiers are not different. They have, perhaps against their better nature, killed thousands of Iraq civilians. And some soldiers have shown themselves capable of brutality, of torture.Yet they are victims, too, of our government’s lies.How many times have we heard President Bush tell the troops that if they die, if they return without arms or legs, or blinded, it is for “liberty,” for “democracy”?One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The killing of 3,000 people on Sept. 11 becomes the justification for killing tens of thousands of people in Afghanistan and Iraq.And nationalism is given a special virulence when it is said to be blessed by Providence. Today we have a president, invading two countries in four years, who announced on the campaign trail in 2004 that God speaks through him.We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.Howard Zinn, a World War II bombardier, is the author of the best-selling “A People’s History of the United States” (Perennial Classics, 2003, latest edition). This piece was distributed by the Progressive Media Project.Source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00biSh Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 cant argue to much with that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myidisbb Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 talk about very one sided .. well without getting in a pissing contest. have a nice f... 4th of july. no doubt you are the party pooper at christmas too. :) :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicano666 Posted July 2, 2007 Author Share Posted July 2, 2007 Christmas? :P Do you even know what is supposed to be celebrated at all? :think: Like I said before, enjoy the freedom you have, the one about remaining ignorant :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amplify Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Nationalism is a mere tool, a vessel to control the masses into what the governing few desire. They know the strategic buttons to push and the string to pull when it's required. Nationalism turns into fanatism, just like any soccer game were opposition kill one another over twenty-two grown men running after a ball. It's sad trying to convince someone of this, they turn defensive and believe one is attacking their very integrity. I love my country, I love Colombia because it's a beautiful place but I have no regard for its government, I love it for what it physically is, not for what ephemeral nationalistic idealogies that just blind people into believing everything is perfect or beautiful. Nation is even a conjured word, it was conjured by the bourgeoisie when they triumphed over the crown. Nationalism doesn't only lead to bloodshed, but it also leads to intolerance towards new cultures where foriegners seem like a threat, not an oppoturnity to expand culture but as some kind of invasion of one's "nation". It's perfectly alright to appreciate one's conditions and acknowledge the comforts allowed and given but to let your blood boil for a government that doesn't think about you, that just desires money, power and popularity that's just moronic and the behavior of a masochist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SliverSamuel Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 read like 5 words of what you wrote, but YEAHHHH! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicano666 Posted July 4, 2007 Author Share Posted July 4, 2007 Nationalism is a mere tool, a vessel to control the masses into what the governing few desire. They know the strategic buttons to push and the string to pull when it's required. Nationalism turns into fanatism, just like any soccer game were opposition kill one another over twenty-two grown men running after a ball. It's sad trying to convince someone of this, they turn defensive and believe one is attacking their very integrity. I love my country, I love Colombia because it's a beautiful place but I have no regard for its government, I love it for what it physically is, not for what ephemeral nationalistic idealogies that just blind people into believing everything is perfect or beautiful. Nation is even a conjured word, it was conjured by the bourgeoisie when they triumphed over the crown. Nationalism doesn't only lead to bloodshed, but it also leads to intolerance towards new cultures where foriegners seem like a threat, not an oppoturnity to expand culture but as some kind of invasion of one's "nation". It's perfectly alright to appreciate one's conditions and acknowledge the comforts allowed and given but to let your blood boil for a government that doesn't think about you, that just desires money, power and popularity that's just moronic and the behavior of a masochist.True, you can be proud as you want of your Nation and its people but that doesn't mean you approve of its government and the politicians. Lets not forget that the "Americans" (US) are foreigners themselves, decendents of the British colonials and they have the nerve to call others illegal inmmigrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myidisbb Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 there is a right way and a wrong way. is that so hard? just look at the laws in mexico for none born people there to live there. plus they dont even give any rights to mexicans born outside their own nation. hmmmmmmm.america was more then just british. there was multi western nations in the northern americas alone. nor where the american indians the first either. stop with the bitching of the past. that is the problem in must peoples of the world. take pride in your own nation, believe in it and defend it. use common sense and dont believe most stuff from hate sites on the internet. ei dnc, gop and illegal 527s. in the usa the military defends the nation. a lot of other countries their military defends the party, ei dictorships and communism.hope you all had or have a happy 4th of july where ever you is or are at. @== (usa flag in yahoo). be safe and dont drink and drive. especially you, paris hilton :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dMog Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 Have you ever stopped to think that all you wrote about is the "excuses" that the people with the power use to start wars and aggression...i mean through out time religious wars have merely the "excuse" to obtain more power for the powerful, it was not religion that caused any war ...it was some guy or a group of people that wanted to take over a country and religion was merely a convenient excuse to go to war..i mean first they diplomatically asked for what they wanted and if there was a refusal they started the process of war sometimes the threat of war was enough for them to get what they wanted sometimes they actually had to go to war but the guys with the power did not care then as they do not care today because they do not get near a battle field...they send us....in the name of God or country...and besides they own the "military industrial complex" so they even make more money during a war. Besides....In modern thinking (at least the church i go to) God does NOT sanction what these guys are doing no matter how much they say he does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myidisbb Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 yes escape goating sucks and happens a lot. just remember if you stand by and do nothing then your rights and freedom to go to that church ends. one has the right to defend ones self. if you dont defend yourself you will be a victim always. and become the escape goat excuse for others. ei jewish and other ethic people in europe pre ww2. someone in a government has to stand up and protect its people. be in local police up to the military. oh well got to get ready to go back overseas. leave is up soon.you all take care and be safe. dont let the Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicano666 Posted July 5, 2007 Author Share Posted July 5, 2007 just remember if you stand by and do nothing then your rights and freedom to go to that church ends. one has the right to defend ones self. if you dont defend yourself you will be a victim always. and become the escape goat excuse for others. ei jewish and other ethic people in europe pre ww2. someone in a government has to stand up and protect its people. be in local police up to the military. oh well got to get ready to go back overseas. leave is up soon.Good point, so now tell me why the US military is in Iraq at the moment, don't complain about any WMD or terrorist links as time has proven there are/were none. . Also according with your logic, we have no right to be there and the Iraqis are the ones who should've overthrown Saddam and not the so called "World Police" (US). Hint: Oil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolt_Gundam510 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 even though they said we went over there to save hundreds of thousands of people we relly didn't, instead of Oil is schould be called Blood. go to the gas station and fill your cars on blood. wars have been fought over Oil and will continue to be fought over Oil till the end of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myidisbb Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 yes they did find wmd. chemical and his nuke program was in lybia. he also supported terrorism. since he has been gone no more family paid suicide bombers against isreal. guess they dont count either in your book. it has cut almost all suicides there complerely. oil? no lefty. iraq was involve with terroism and training them . there was airplane here that they train on. guess that was forgotten in your news outlet too. at least two assassin plots against our presidents, its about giving the middle east people hope. start them down the path of democracy. the war on terrism right now is there. but i guess you all like it in europe instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dMog Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 you cannot fight centuries of wrongs ... by waging war on the poor of a region who have been exploited by all wester countries AND their own leaders for hundreds of years....case in point at the end of the second world war the USA instituted the marshal plan...basically they sent billions of dollars in aid to western Europe t..the reason, if they did not aid in rebuilding a shattered economy there the Russians would have taken over the western world would have been at war with Russia by the end of the 50s....instead they decided to use non military options that time....now if the west would have gone in the the oil producing states in the middle east and INSISTED that a bulk of the money they gave for oil went to the poor in the region we would not be in the mess we are in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myidisbb Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 we still occupy germany. it took them 10 years to form their own government. there is no differences from what we did then to what we doing now in iraq. a heck of a lot more americans die in the early years after occuping germany he has die in iraq too. we are not fighting centuries of wrongs. like i said one should nt do that. they on the other hand are fighting to turn back the centuries. you have to realize they believe we the evil western nations stoled their power.we the west was in the oil natins of middle east before their nations got greedy and stole the sites. since then they havent updated anyhthing. and its always breaking down. why the heck or right do we ever have in telling a nation how to use its money. in the middle east they really dont give a dang about the poor or window mothers. (against their teachings too. seems them like to ignore it) it is suicide to pour money into the poor. (usa they have poured 6 trillion now) they become beggars of the state. better to teach them to help themselves instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicano666 Posted July 5, 2007 Author Share Posted July 5, 2007 yes they did find wmd. chemical and his nuke program was in lybia. he also supported terrorism. since he has been gone no more family paid suicide bombers against isreal. guess they dont count either in your book. it has cut almost all suicides there complerely. oil? no lefty. iraq was involve with terroism and training them . there was airplane here that they train on. guess that was forgotten in your news outlet too. at least two assassin plots against our presidents, its about giving the middle east people hope. start them down the path of democracy. the war on terrism right now is there. but i guess you all like it in europe instead.Supported terrorism? Training them? :) Training who? Did it ever cross your self-centered mind that politics had anything to do with the assassination plots? Foreign policy anyone? May I remind you that the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia and that they were trained by Osama (who in turn was trained by the CIA back in the 80s I believe) no Iraqis involved. Democracy? and the US sure is a great example of one right? I mean the current president stole the election back in 2000, very democratic. There is no war on terror, if anything, it should've started years ago but back then the so called terrorists were our allies. Give them hope, we should've given them hope back during the gulf war, but instead an embargo was imposed and many died because they couldn't get their basic medicines and food. The american government has done an excellent job keeping thier citizens from the truth.we still occupy germany. it took them 10 years to form their own government. there is no differences from what we did then to what we doing now in iraq. a heck of a lot more americans die in the early years after occuping germany he has die in iraq too. What we did, but what about what the Iraqis did. we are not fighting centuries of wrongs. like i said one should nt do that. they on the other hand are fighting to turn back the centuries. you have to realize they believe we the evil western nations stoled their power.Didn't we?we the west was in the oil natins of middle east before their nations got greedy and stole the sites. since then they havent updated anyhthing. and its always breaking down. why the heck or right do we ever have in telling a nation how to use its money. in the middle east they really dont give a dang about the poor or window mothers. (against their teachings too. seems them like to ignore it)After all, it is their soil would you like your neighbour to handle your finances? Americans are very religious...but its ok to kill people if they are evil, after all the world is Black & White and the US is good (White) right? Nonsense, theres far more than just two sides. it is suicide to pour money into the poor. (usa they have poured 6 trillion now) they become beggars of the state. better to teach them to help themselves instead.This one statement should prove to others how well educated and informed some americans are. Enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myidisbb Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 shaking head. the cold war had friends one day and enemys the next day. base on your logic we should invade and bomb saudi arabia. there is a reason why bl picked those poeple from those nations. bl is piss becvuase he will never rule saudi arabia. that is what this whole war of his is about. plus escape goating the west and jews. spelling and grammar cops had bite me.you really think the usa sees things in black and white? shaking head. hope you all had a nice and safe independents day of what ever nation you are of and where ever you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dMog Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 what are we doing in the middle east.... basically the hard line religious leaders {the ones with the power} declared war on the west about 20 years ago.... I am not sure of the exact words they used but they all basically got together and said the west will be put to the sword in the name of their god.... if you don't believe me check it out it is a matter of their own public record...And by the way for the pat 100 years anyone who spoke out against their hard line was killed that is public record also....i would rather live here in Canada or the usa or england where if you don't like the government at least you and your family will not dissapear for voiceing your oppinion.AND........ yes i do have friends fighting over there and i support them whole heartedly and i happen to aggree they need to be there.... however it also does not stop me thinking we coulf have avoided this by doing the right things many many years ago too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myidisbb Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 what are we doing in the middle east.... basically the hard line religious leaders {the ones with the power} declared war on the west about 20 years ago.... I am not sure of the exact words they used but they all basically got together and said the west will be put to the sword in the name of their god.... if you don't believe me check it out it is a matter of their own public record...And by the way for the pat 100 years anyone who spoke out against their hard line was killed that is public record also....i would rather live here in Canada or the usa or england where if you don't like the government at least you and your family will not dissapear for voiceing your oppinion.AND........ yes i do have friends fighting over there and i support them whole heartedly and i happen to aggree they need to be there.... however it also does not stop me thinking we coulf have avoided this by doing the right things many many years ago too....very much agree. right thing would been to support the shae of iran. thats where all the problem started. thank you noble peace guy carter for freaken us all. (and ussr for supporting the rel nut of iran) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambrocious Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 By what we see on the news or hear from reports, we learn what is supposed to be the truth when it comes time to learn about the wars that this world is going thru right now. In the United States the war we hear most about is the Iraq war, but has anyone thought about what might be the leading news in other countries and for this mater, if the news is the same or even near the same as ours?We as Americans hear one thing in the news over and over again and we tend to believe this. This way of hearing the same thing over and over again has the same impact on other people from their nations as well. Just because to us the Iraq war is what is most frequently heard it does not mean that every bit of it is true. It also means that if our news even on CNN could be misleading, the news in other countries could very well be completely just as misleading and in fact dangerous if believed whole heartedly.I am trying to let you see that not everything you hear from the TV or even from your neighbor is the correct thing. We can but simply watch CNN and hear what is said but we cannot see the proof of what they said and we cannot know for sure that what we are hearing is 100 percent true. When a person working for a news station first starts off, he or she makes his or her first report and the person who reads it laughs at them and tells them what they said wrong. In most cases, the truth about reporting’s are often spiced up to make a more dramatic appearance and to ignite feelings in us that we are supposed to feel according to the directives of what the government wants us to hear. We do hear lots of the truth but even if the truth has something added to it, this can cause our outcome of our very daily lives to be affected as to what we think about certain life events.One of my biggest points is that since our country (assuming you’re in the USA) may have misleading news; imagine how one news report might be conceived while coming from a news station in a Middle Eastern area. I am not inciting that they are purposely lying, but I am saying that because of a heightened sense of everything happening mixed with yet a higher amount of religious infiltration, what the common person might hear over there may have a much greater impact on their lives because to THEM, if the news that they hear is accompanied by religious innuendoes then the most appropriate thing for anyone sharing the same religious view is to believe it...and fiercely!While the news we hear in the USA may be misleading, (and this I am not trying to say is in any way better) the news heard from a Middle Eastern viewer may be affected more strongly and perhaps even radically by what they hear. Religion all together can be a very dangerous thing if it is used to end the freedom of others or to inflict pain, suffering, or death onto others. The reason many people hate Christians is because Christianity has had some detours of just what it represents in its history. Hopefully I can say now that the common Christian would not do such things as kill for land, and that we live differently as other so called Christians have in the past. I strongly believe that whoever thought in their mind that God approved of the slaughter of thousands of people must have been misled into the teachings of someone or rather something on the opposite side of God.Basically, as humans we have tried many different ways of ruling a people, and all have not been overall successful. How a leader rules his people is to the people's choice if they wish to be oppressed or not. I do not approve of evil rulers but in the end, every evil ruler meets a very misfortunate end some way or another. Invading Iraq with means of changing it forever has succeeded...but has it been for the good I wander? I suppose those people who are merely soldiers have a care in their hearts at first, but slowly a callus does form (metaphorically) and war does change people for the worse. I have learned that complaining about wars and tribulations that we as humanity face should not be a racial barrier since what we tend to fight over happens to involve the very earth we live upon. Does this earth not belong to us as people in the United States just as much as it also belongs to everyone else? The whole factor of being dominant due to having much of one thing from this earth is a very feeble view and way of life. The much larger scale of person to person growth has hardly been influenced to grow since earthly material holds more value than human to human benefits. Of course the things that I am speaking about are things this world tends to lack or has little of or is rare to find, and so because of this people tend to think of themselves and the gain that they can get to make THEM more of what they want to be. But recall that I said having a large amount of earthly things makes you weak since having large relations with people in a means to grow in many ways makes you strong in numerous ways. There was a wise saying that mentioned how the wise man will sharpen himself on other wise men, and this is what many in this world do not understand. Wisdom for the benefit to build friendship should not be built with or should not be determine merely by earthly things but it should always include unbroken promises and reliability. Trust is what I am speaking of...very few know what it is like to truly trust another person with his life. Human relations are very important in order to build a better life and I hope that someday this will be common knowledge to all mankind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SliverSamuel Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 @Ambrocious:wow, you like wrote a whole essay :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambrocious Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Yes, the matter of war and human greed is a very important thing. Even though it is a very wearing subject, if it is announced in a manner that is neutral to everyone or at least mostly accepted by everyone then the need to argue goes out the window. Personal feelings that we sometimes voice while talking on these subjects tend to bring responses from other people who disagree which in that case causes more arguments when in simple conclusions, one could possibly try and state facts or ideas that we all can agree upon to make arguments next to nothing or as small as possible. Arguing for the sake of finding a solution is good but some people tend to argue out of fierce emotion which causes some additional injury to other people’s emotions and eventually retaliations that seems to not end. Is it really hard to say what everyone agrees with while in fact stating the truth? Maybe some do not accept the truth and so they may argue. Yet the truth may be hidden and as I said, what we hear from the news could be altered, so keep in mind that the only thing that we can do is to be the best we can be towards each other and let everyone see for themselves what kind of person we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicano666 Posted July 7, 2007 Author Share Posted July 7, 2007 I concur, telling a lie or altered truth over and over again might eventually be thought as a truth or fact which can mislead people, and often does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dMog Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 I concur, telling a lie or altered truth over and over again might eventually be thought as a truth or fact which can mislead people, and often does.case in point.... there are a lot of people out there that have "proof" that America faked the moon landings...worse yet many more actually believe these quacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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